From Burnt-Out W2 to Thriving Full-Fee: Kasryn's Journey (Episode 17)
In this heartfelt episode, I sit down with Kasryn Kapp, a therapist whose journey into private practice began with necessity—but has since blossomed into something truly sustainable. After leaving a dangerous and unsupportive agency job, Kasryn built a thriving full-fee practice centered on helping clients with insomnia and those learning to prioritize themselves for the first time.
Kasryn shares candidly about her early struggles—months without clients, confusion about her niche, and fear around marketing. She also opens up about the powerful mindset shifts that helped her step into a new season of safety, steadiness, and self-trust. Whether you're feeling stuck, scared, or simply unsure how to get traction, Kasryn’s story will remind you that slow growth can still be strong growth—and that marketing doesn’t have to mean spinning your wheels.
Here’s what you’ll learn in this episode:
1️⃣ How Kasryn found clarity in her niche—and why that clarity made her easier (and more exciting!) to refer to
2️⃣ The biggest marketing mistake she made early on, and what helped her finally start seeing results
3️⃣ How she shifted her money mindset, left insurance, and built a schedule that supports her life—not the other way around
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Hey there. Welcome back to Marketing Therapy episode 17. This one is really special. In this episode, I am sitting down with Kasryn Kapp, who is an incredibly talented clinician in the Philadelphia area, who has a really remarkable story of leaving her agency life literally for her own safety, jumping into private practice, and now existing as a thriving full fee clinician.
Becoming well known in her niche and building a practice that truly fits her life. If that's your goal, then I think you're gonna take a lot away from Kasryn's story. And if nothing else, over the next little while, I think you're gonna be very, very inspired by the story of someone who was faced with adversity and turned it into something that is going to serve her and her family for years to come.
Alright, that's enough from me. Let's dive into this interview.
My name's Catherine. I use she her pronouns and I help exhausted adults break the cycle of sleepless nights using a research backed approach.
That's my niche area and I'm a therapist licensed in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and I'm able to serve clients in Vermont as well.
That's a pretty, uh, polished niche statement there. You've worked hard to, to get there. You do. In addition to your insomnia work, you also see individuals outside of that.
Right. Tell me a little bit about the other clients you see.
Yeah. Thank you for asking that. So I also help women and non-binary folks who are putting themselves last and want to start. Moving up talking about it, even, they're not even ready to start prioritizing themselves. But I just wanna have someone to talk to who's not gonna disempower them.
And sometimes that happens after. My clients are sleeping well, sometimes that's the next step. You know, I've been self-sacrificing so much sleep went by the wayside. Now I'm sleeping well and it's opening up a door to other areas of my life that I can now explore. And sometimes clients find me directly for that work as well.
I.
Cool. I wanna hear more about the niche work that you do. 'cause it is really unique. Anytime I get to learn more about CBTI from you, I enjoy that. But, tell us just to, as we get to know you a little bit more, what season of life and of practice are you in right now? How long have you been at this?
Yeah, so I, in preparing for this, I looked at it and I'm shocked to see it's been three years this month. July 1st. And, we'll talk about this too, but it was really difficult at first. I didn't know what my niche was.
I'd been a generalist working in community mental health, so it almost feels like it's been two years because the first year I was just figuring out, up from down and how to be an entrepreneur, how to be in private practice, uh, all of that. So, yeah, it feels a little surreal. And then. Of life. I am really coming into.
What does it look like to put myself first to do the work that I'm now doing with clients? Like what do I love now? You know, I'm been, I've been going to the pool in the middle of the day. I love that. Um, going to, yeah, my partner's medical appointment and being able to support 'em and what, it just feels so different from the kind of grind, hustle, grind work that I was in for so long.
So I really. Exciting and exploratory phase of life.
Well, that's an exciting one to be in. I love that. tell us a little bit about where this all started. Kind of take us back to the beginning. You were in community mental health. What led you to decide to jump into the whole private practice thing?
Yeah, so I'd been doing that community mental health, high acuity, federally qualified health center kind of work for seven years, and I knew I was burnt out. In my mind at that time, self-care was taking like a weekend trip or doing more meditation and it really, and pushing through. I think it's so easy for pushing through to become a habit.
It's part of the culture there and I thought I could keep doing that forever and that was not the case for me. I ended up burning out. So much that I had to quit. And there's also gun violence thoughts at work. It just wasn't a safe environment. So I had to leave for my safety really. That was the beginning.
It was a rough start. I wouldn't recommend it. I didn't
know this about you. This is, yeah. Really interesting. So I think sometimes when people go into private practice, it's because they have these big, lofty goals for themselves, which you very well may have had, but you were also just making a.
Necessary decision for yourself. So in some ways, did you feel a little bit forced into this or did you enter into it excited?
It's the best thing that ever happened to me, but it did at the time, feel very forced. I was applying for other W2 jobs in a similar environment that I was used to. And I need reasonable accommodations, especially in COVID, that I'm partially deaf and the masks make it really difficult.
I could not get an interview where they would provide accommodations. So it wasn't a possibility almost. It felt like, I mean, I'm sure eventually I could have found something, but I was being turned away experiencing discrimination. And so, you know, I had a friend in private practice who had been encouraging me to do it, and I was afraid of entrepreneurship that.
Would mean that it would be hustling forever, which is not true, but that was my belief that it would be constantly unsteady, which is also not true. I'm so much more steady and safe than I was then. But yeah, I really did feel I. Forced into it
so you got started and if you can bring yourself back to those early days, what were those challenges?
You mentioned kinda that first year was just learning kind of up from down and how to be an entrepreneur. What were some of those initial challenges where you, you know, that kind of got us to where we are today?
Yeah, so some of the challenges felt like, you know, this is just a learning curve. I need to figure it out.
Like getting a bookkeeping system set up and. Telehealth and EHR and all that kind of stuff. But the biggest challenge, which I think a lot of people listening will resonate with listening to marketing therapy, is marketing niching. Shocking. How do I find them? Yeah. And it continues to be, I think, for a lot of people, a real pain point.
And so that was my biggest challenge and I think. I kind of feel like, and you've helped me and I can't thank you enough, and Anna's not paying me to say this, but, you helped me so much. I feel like I have a system now that works, so it's still something I need to work on, but I feel like I've figured it out for now.
But that was a huge pain point. I didn't have any clients for like. Four or five months, it was challenging.
Yeah. Yeah. In those early days. And you're absolutely right. Some of this is just natural. Like it's very abnormal to start your practice and all of a sudden just be fully booked and thriving and, you know, everything's sunshine and rainbows.
Like that isn't reality. There is a curve. But those early days of I remember when we met. I remember when you sent me your first couple of emails wondering about working together and that sort of thing. What were you doing in your marketing that you felt like wasn't working? What were you trying that didn't feel like it was landing?
Yeah. I was spinning my wheels following shiny objects, trying to do everything. I had an Instagram. I was networking, but my niche statement wasn't clear at all. I was. On every directory I could get my hands on. And I was shocked that none of it was working because in my mind, and this is something I'm learning too, working hard means results.
Now that's shifted to taking the right action, which is often less work leads to results. So yeah, I was kind of, just frantic. Yeah. And at the time too, I can't emphasize enough the importance of having an emergency savings, which saved me through this time where I had to quit and then I was.
Figuring out entrepreneurship. But yeah, that's just kind of what I was doing at the time.
Yeah. And you also have left insurance, which we'll get to a little bit, but I know some of the earlier kind of beliefs and doubts you talked about, things like it's always, going to require hustling and that it's always good to be unstable, but there are also some money messages and things like that you've really had to wrestle with.
Do you feel like there are other beliefs that you were holding then that maybe have shifted now?
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There's a lot of money mindset work in this. I think our profession is really devalued, the pay being. So little for the amount of work. It's not just, and everyone listening knows it's not just a session too.
It's everything that goes into it. And so I had this belief that, you know, if you charge too much, you're a bad person. If you have money, you're bad. There's all kinds of cliches about wealth being bad. And I really am against the wealth inequality. Like I really want us to all. Share resources more equitably.
But what I realized and a belief I've kind of come to is that me making myself small doesn't make other people wealthy. It just makes me small and supports the system that wants me as a disabled, queer woman to be small.
Gotcha. Yeah, just kind of figuring out where you fit in all that. Alright, I wanna know more about your niche.
So tell me how you came into Insomnia work, why you love it. It's a unique one. I think the standard niche these days, is quite a bit different from this. So tell me about how you came into this niche, what you love about it.
First of all, the statement I give at the beginning, my elevator pitch niche statement is so important to have that people understand what I do, and you helped me with that confident copy helped me with that so much.
But as for the niche itself in college, I wasn't sleeping well. I had insomnia, and I was lucky enough to have a therapist who was trained in the modality that I use CBTI and I was really skeptical. At first I thought, yeah. I've already done everything. I did the sleep hygiene thing, this isn't gonna work.
Lo and behold it did. It really worked very well. And I have a family history of insomnia. You know, I have a lot of things that were stories that this wouldn't work for me, but it did and it's continues to work. And despite, even despite all those stressors and the burnout, I was sleeping. So that was like such a godsend.
So that's how I got into it. And then I had a pretty confusing niche. Conglomerate before I started Confident Copy and Insomnia was in there and I got a lot of traction with it. People were really interested in it and so I got a few clients. Those were my first few clients and I remembered how much I loved to do it.
I've been integrating it at In in Community Mental health, but you really can't specialize there. So I would do it and then not have any clients for a while and then do it again. But I realized how much I love to do it, so I decided to zoom in on that and it's been. Fantastic.
Yeah, I remember that.
Work with you early on, in Confident copy where you were deciding 'cause you had come in seeing this wider range of clients and you decided, you know, I am gonna own this, while still honoring that, non. Insomnia client that we were talking about earlier, those women and non-binary folks who, have been making themselves small and that sort of thing.
But seeing you embody that I think has served you incredibly well these days. And like you said, you get traction with a niche like that.
Yeah. And it gives me freedom to really train further in it. You'd think with sleep, we know everything there is to know. We've been doing it for all of humanity and time, but we're learning more.
All the time. There's new treatments coming out. One just came out last year. There's another one burgeoning coming out, and so it affords me the time to learn more about, it's so fascinating.
I could do only trainings on it and a little bit of clinical work and I'd be happy. Uh, it's, it's how wonderful
to love your work that much.
Yeah. Very refreshing. From before where there's like a boss and you have to meet the productivity hours and it's. Fueled by fear.
Absolutely. Tell me a little bit, I don't know if I know this, how did you first learn about Confident Copy?
So I think the very first point of contact was a Facebook ad.
I. I don't remember what it said, but you looked really nice in the picture. Well, thank you. And I was, you know, grabbing onto anything that would help and I I followed that. I think it was, I don't really remember. I think it was one of those free trainings. And I told my business bestie about it. And she took the leap before I did.
She was like, I think this is good. And then she talked me into it. If you can have a business buddy that's like on the same journey as you, that's so powerful because I was really afraid that I would get scammed. I was investing my own personal savings into the business. So there was a lot of fear around investing in things, and I didn't think about it like that.
I was thinking about it as an expense, but instead of an investment. We can talk more about that later, but yeah, I think it was a Facebook ad.
Yeah. Interesting. I think a lot of clinicians, especially those who were in kind of that stage that you were in, can identify with the idea of just grabbing for anything.
Like I will, I will watch any webinar that you tell me to watch. I will download every freebie, I will join every Facebook group. I will read every blog post, and that can be really overwhelming and it can, I think, be difficult to discern. What is actually the right quote unquote advice. What stood out to you as far as confident copy goes that felt like it was the right one.
Not that it's the only one, and it certainly isn't the only resource you've used, but what stood out to you that made you think like, okay, among all the things I'm grabbing, maybe this is a good one to like take hold of
two things. Most importantly was word of mouth referral. Like it really worked for people who did it and they were living the life that I wanted to live.
That's, I mean, more than anything anyone could say is someone did that program and saw success with it. Sure. And I said, I want that too. The other thing was accessibility. You have really great accessibility features. You have captions on the calls, and that's a boundary for me. Like, I'm not gonna put myself in a situation anymore where I don't have that.
So I really, I'm grateful to you because it's a, a lot of other programs don't do that.
Such an easy thing to do. Um, that's, that's shocking to me, but I'm so glad to be able to create a community like that. During Confident Copy, obviously we did a lot of work around your niche and we've touched on that a little bit.
What tools support, you know, what parts of the program really stood out to you or do you feel like were the most valuable on your journey?
Yeah, I really liked the coaching calls. I think. It gave me a lot of insight. There were people who were slightly ahead of me and that was helpful. People on the call saying, Hey, I put my website, this page up, and I got a client that kind of, okay, this is real.
I can do this. The momentum. So, so that community aspect I think. And then also there was a lot of structure and. Clarity and you weren't telling me what to say, but you're telling me what are clients looking for in this section? That's so helpful. 'cause it never occurred to me. And I think that that's where a lot of people fall prey to trying to speak to like colleagues or trying to do what sounds smart.
Be like, Hey, clients wanna know that you're nice and you're human and here's how can you speak to that?
Yeah. Uh, what surprised you about kind of your own growth through that process, figuring out your niche, writing a website, that, that really aligned with it.
Is there anything that you look back and you were like especially proud of or surprised by as far as your own change that you experienced?
I think before I felt like, so I bike a lot. I love cycling and I felt like the chain was off. Like I was spinning the wheels and going nowhere. Hmm. And I feel like confident copy put the chain on the bike so that I'm not spinning my wheels. Like the effort I was putting in was really working. So I think what surprised me is, you know, a lot of those doubts and stories about entrepreneurship is constantly hustling or even not taking insurance is constantly hustling.
You know, I think a lot of those narratives. It surprised me when they were challenged and I can put in work and go further.
Less
work.
I think that's, yeah. What a wonderful metaphor. I love that. Um, Catherine, you're one of those people that I think you and I love meeting clinicians like you. Who are you?
You could have taken confident copy, you could have not taken confident copy. I think you still would have been successful. If you hadn't, where do you think you would be right now?
That's my kind of view. I think I may have eventually figured it out, but trying to do it piecemeal with the free stuff it would've taken me so long to figure it out.
I think I would be on the platforms and desperately wanting to get off. I think I really am hesitant. I wanna say that if being on a platform is what works for you and your family and your business, there's no shame or judgment at all. I really. Don't trust them. I don't trust their mission.
I don't trust what they're doing. And I think I would feel like I had to be on them and I'd wanna get off but not know how. Mm. So I think that's where I'd be without confident Copy.
I also think even if I had figured it out, and I think we're gonna talk about income too, but confident Copy really was an investment in the sense that the payoff is continuing and building.
Along with the work that I put into it and built on it. So I think I'd probably have a hard time meeting the income goals that I have now, or the ones that I met last year.
Yeah. Yeah. Cool. So Post Confident copy, you launched your website, you've left insurance. Tell me a little bit about, that was about three years ago, was in that first year that you took Confident copy.
How are things going today? What have you, you know, accomplished? Whether that is a tangible, you know, kind of concrete thing or we can get into the intangible the confidence, the sustainability, the safety you mentioned that you're feeling today.
Yeah. Yeah, I think in the intangible, I've kind of set up the situation where I don't really have to work more than 35 hours a week, which feels kind of weird and illegal and like, so I'm gonna get in trouble with someone or something, I don't know.
So
after years of being in community mental health, that might just be a deeply ingrained thing.
It's pretty ingrained. Right. And I started working at a really young age too. And so I think that. Employee kind of work a certain number of hours is really deeply ingrained. So, you know, exploring that and getting used to it.
And then income too. Like last year I made more money than I ever made at a W2 job seeing. Way fewer clients because of confident copy. You know, I also did some other work too, of course, networking and building a community around the money mindset piece. Um, but in 2024, Mike Gross revenue, so pre-tax, pre expenses was 89,000, just over 89,000, seeing about 13 clients a week.
And then this year I'm on track to make the same. So far this year I've made a little bit more than last year, so far last year, so the first six months of the year. Um, but seeing fewer clients and not being on insurance. So yeah. Lots of wins and thank you for that. Yeah.
Um, what was the process like of getting off of insurance and where, where in your journey did that happen?
Yeah, that's really recent. Um, I've been slowly, I. Moving away from it for, I mean, pretty much since I started. But I officially ended all contracts, um, at the end of May, and then I of two clients at the beginning of June. So this
last month, very recent. Wow, I didn't realize that. Okay.
Yeah.
Congratulations.
Yeah, but I've been slowly tapering. So the, it was a platform that I was on, and you can. Limit your intakes. So I hadn't been accepting new clients for a very long time, tapering off and building the private pay side for a long time. But officially all in private pay. It's very recent.
Wow. Congratulations. I didn't realize I was getting to sit down with you at such an exciting point in your practice.
So if you imagine yourself today, going to the pool in the afternoons, you know, being able to go to your partner's medical appointments compared to back in the day grinding, hustling chain off the bike. What feels different? How are you different as a business owner, as just a human? What do you feel like has changed for you since then?
I think I feel so much more autonomy. Before even with the platform, there was sort of a boss there. Even if it's technically your 10 99. If they said you have to do this new workflow. Then you kind of have to do it. But now, and increasingly I feel like, oh, actually I don't think that's best client care.
I don't think that's ethical, for example integrating AI in ways that I think, I'm not against it, but I think it's integrated really quickly and not necessarily with client care at the forefront. And so. You know, having the autonomy to make decisions, what's gonna be the best for my practice for myself?
I think that's kind of the overarching theme. And then also just shifting my mindset now that I've set this up to I can relax into it kind of thing.
Mm-hmm. What a great feeling. One thing that's always important to me, and that's curious to me as well is to. Be honest about the fact that growing a practice and marketing, here we are in like the marketing therapy podcast.
It doesn't stop. So you can go through Confident Copy and graduate and create a website, and the marketing doesn't end there. It hopefully takes on a new, a new flavor and feels differently and gets different results. But at the end of the day, you like, that's something that continues for the life of your practice.
Um, and one of the things I love is that it can look a lot of different ways. You can, may be dancing on Instagram and making reels and getting clients and you can be networking and you can be. Sitting behind your computer and blogging. Right. There's lots of different ways to do it. What for you has been important and what types of regular marketing are you involved in on a consistent basis?
Yeah, so just to speak to what you said, that's so true. You do have to continue. But something I've found is it feels more like building a body of work than. Just constantly doing things to try to hope something sticks. So, like I was doing before, confident Coffee. Yeah. So I do still work now and I still engage in it, but one example is I have a free workshop for therapist if you're curious to learn more about sleep therapy.
It's on my website slash prevent. Um, oh, cool. We'll put that in the show notes. You can check that out. Um, but that kinda lives on my website and it is a free resource for therapists. I think reflecting on my experience as a client, I was really grateful that I had a therapist who knew about this, and so I wanna share that.
And also it helps. Therapists become aware that there are effective tools, not just sleep hygiene, which we've already tried and it didn't work. Um, that there are answers. So it serves two purposes. One, it feels really good. I can help colleagues, I can help clients like me who needed someone who knew that.
And also it helps establish credibility. Like I know what I'm talking about. I'm a real person 'cause you can see me talking on the video. And so that's something I did, but it kind of hangs out there and it's not like I have to constantly do it all the time and it works for me, I guess. Mm-hmm, yeah, so I do things like that and that I would put in the networking category. I host queer networking groups locally, online, and that's really rewarding being able to bring people together. I just love talking with people. I like networking. That's, I think, kind of unique about me from what I get. Yes, most of
the clinicians I serve don't necessarily feel that way about it.
Yeah. Most people don't. There are ways to do it that are powerful and, and don't have to look like what I'm doing, so keep that in mind. I like it. So that's unique. Yeah. So I love just getting together. Like last week I got together at a coffee shop with some wonderful colleagues who have really interesting specialties and we just talked about our work.
It was really cool. Beautiful day, kind of hot, but yeah, in the middle of a Wednesday, you know? And, um, so that I also do SEO work. I'm told my SEO is pretty good by the Google people I talk to. I of course, confident copy builds that in, so there's a fantastic foundation there. And then I do blogging. Honestly, it's really sporadic.
I don't like blogging, so if you like blogging, good for you. I like networking, but I yeah, try to do that. Somewhat consistently.
Blogging and then directories, niche specific directories have been fantastic.
So those are my three. Yeah. As you tell us to pick two to three, that's really helpful. 'cause I would do everything and if I don't limit it and I don't need to do everything, but networking, SEO and directories.
I love that. Um, I remember you talking about having networked with some, some new colleagues fairly recently after your time in Confident Copy, and they said that they were excited to refer to you and that that was, that was a new experience.
I.
Oh yeah. But, but my niche, before I couldn't even give you a niche statement. It was like, I like helping people and I also like this and I also like that. And people, I think they wanted to help me and they were just really confused about what I did. And so now people tend to get more, oh, I had someone who really.
Needs this kind of work and it works better. And also, I understand that feeling because sometimes I have that with people. Like, I love connecting with this wonderful therapist, but I don't understand who's a good fit for her. Like, I wanna send her people, but I can't connect it with somebody in my mind.
So I think they appreciate it too, but I've had people say. Wow. I'm so excited to refer to you, which was shocking to me. 'cause the reaction before was, I don't know if I have anybody like that.
Yeah. Right, right. I think that's a something that's commonly forgotten when clinicians are networking, that it's critical that you are memorable.
You have to be easy to refer to if you want networking to work. And that starts with having a clear understanding of what it, what the heck you actually do. Right. Um, that's where that kind of all starts.
Yeah. Yeah, it's helpful I think on both sides too, like if, if I am speaking to that, it helps them.
Understand, it just takes kind of the mental work off of their plate of trying to think about it. And also now that I have more time to even further my specialization, do more training, it gives an opportunity to be a resource for people too, which feels really good for me. Like if people are like, oh, I have a client with hot flashes, for example.
It gives me a lot of time to take a really deep dive. Everything there's to know about hot flashes, journal articles about it. Books and then consult and then I know more about hot flashes and they get the benefit of that work and it just works. Yeah.
I love that. It's really cool, Catherine, to hear your sort of evolution as a business owner being essentially forced into it for your own wellbeing and now.
By all accounts thriving. Certainly there's room and we'll talk about your future goals, but really cool to hear that evolution. One thing that I wanna call out that is really a powerful shift is this idea of viewing investments like confident copy, other resources you've used to grow your practice as investments and not as expensive.
Can you tell me more about that?
Yeah.
So.
This almost sounds like business influencer thing, but going from an employee mindset, I don't know what else to call it, of like this is an expense I have to justify to my boss. Now this is some a cost that is gonna bring down whatever the revenue or whatever.
This is something that's gonna pay for itself, but also make my life easier. It's going to be an investment in the true cents of the word. That's kind of a, a growth edge that I have now and that I've been working on. And, some wonderful colleagues have helped me with that because I was so very much thinking about confident copy as this is something that's gonna cost my business versus.
This is something that's gonna make my business bloom. And so, yeah, it's definitely a shift in mindset.
Yeah. Do you continue to look at investments and expenses these days in that way too, when you're sort of considering, you know, a training, I think tends to be a little bit more of a, traditional way of thinking about an investment.
But anytime effectively you're spending money on your business, are you looking at it through that lens?
Yeah, that's something I'm actively working on 'cause it's not something that just changed. So when I'm looking at some extra funds that I have, how do I wanna use that? I am, I have a note on my, like business bookkeeping.
I have a whole system for that. And part of it is a reminder about is this, what's the ROI on this? Is it an investment? And sometimes there are expenses like. Things that aren't gonna necessarily influence, but maybe I want them. And then that's great. You know, it does, not everything is an investment, but looking for that because I think it, it was an important shift that got me to where I am and it's something that my, my business.
Buddies helped me with too.
Yeah. Cool. Tell me what you're excited about next. I mean, you just officially, de paneled. So what are you excited about personally, professionally, whatever it may be as you look ahead into the rest of the year and into the coming years as a practice owner.
Yeah. So into the coming year I have a very ambitious side that's. Wonderful and sometimes serves me, and sometimes it's just high functioning anxiety. So my goal for this year, as of now, is to make the same as I made last year without insurance. It's working so far. I am feeling really hopeful about it.
I think I tend to get really ambitious. I do have a big goal that I want, but I'm gonna move that out a little bit as a way to challenge that. Achiever, like teacher's pet, good goal conditioning kind of way that I naturally follow through. Yeah, so my goal is to make the same, so a little bit over $89,000.
Um, and I won't need to see as many clients to do that and to just enjoy life more. And then, my big goal is to pay off all my student loan debt. Buy a house in the area where I live, which is an urban area, so it's expensive and give my partner the option to not work. So to do that, I need to make $200,000 a year.
Okay. Can't see my face on the podcast, but that is an audition. She's saying
it out loud.
Yeah, it's, I'm saying it out loud. It's real. And I'm not gonna push. Myself too much to get there. But I think what I'm learning is that there's so much possibility and saying it out loud with generosity and space to get there, not pushing to get there.
That's powerful. That's powerful to set a goal that has generosity and space, not pressure. That's huge. And I think you're gonna meet it. And then some, I mean like you said, there's so much possibility.
Many people are listening who I think can identify with your journey. Maybe they're in that spinning chain off phase or maybe they're in the phase of having de paneled and are looking at what to do and what investments to make, what's worth their time.
What would you want to tell those people?
Well, I, just to rehash a little bit the thinking about ROI, that's something that a good advice I got was to look at that build a community, even if you don't like networking, not thinking about it like that, but just colleagues. Who have a similar way of thinking about things. I don't think I would be right without my colleague who talked me into confident copy, like she helped me so much to, to make these moves.
So build a community. I mean, I think Confident Copy is a fantastic investment. So if you're thinking about it, go for it. But also look for word of mouth referrals. If you're looking at something you're not sure think about ROI and have an emergency savings first. Yeah, you
mentioned that earlier.
It's a little off topic, but it's, it was so important in my journey that I had that because it opened up space. To explore and to take this path.
Yeah. I actually wanna ask one more question and that's, and I, I think this resonates deeply with me because in my own therapy work, I've realized my number one value is security.
Mm. Um, and so anytime someone mentions things like that, my ears perk up. But you mentioned that you actually feel more safe and secure now than you did in a W2 position. Can you tell me more about that? Because I think ultimately a lot of us are seeking. That and early on in private practice, it can feel like you can't find safety or security anywhere you look.
So what's that been like for you?
Yeah, well it's fantastic. And I think there's a couple elements at play. One is. The autonomy piece I mentioned earlier, I'm not being pressured to do something that would put my license at risk, which happens in community mental health. You're asked to do things that are not ethical sometimes.
And so that makes me feel more secure. I have my own malpractice insurance. They work for me versus working for my company who. May throw me under the bus. They could, I don't know if they would, but they could. I can make sure that my accommodation needs are met or I don't participate. I'm not gonna be pressured to do something.
When I don't have what I need to do well. So that makes me feel more secure. And then on the money side I know what's going on behind the scenes so often they would say, oh, we can't afford to pay you more because of budget, but we never saw the budget. I don't, and I don't know. So that black box behind the scenes, so I know.
What's coming in, I know what's going on, and I use the profit first cash management system, which I recommend. There's a book profit first for therapists. And so that makes me feel really secure too. Like I pay myself a regular salary, so when I make more, I set that aside. I pay myself a regular salary.
It feels very secure, and I know what's going on behind the curtains. Absolutely. That's, I think most of it.
Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Thank you for that. Alright, Catherine, I don't think I have any more questions for you today. Um, this has been such a wonderful I, I, I just love getting to learn more about you and to hear about your journey and that evolution as a business owner and to know where you're at today.
If you could go back and say one thing to that earlier version of yourself, what would you say?
You don't have to suffer like this. You don't have to make yourself small and making it so you thrive doesn't hurt other people. You can be safe and that helps other people, helps the people around you.
And so. I think that's what I would say. I'd have a lot more specific advice, but I think I touched on that all throughout this.
Yeah. Yeah. That's wonderful. Catherine, thank you so much for being here today.
Yeah. Thank you for having me. And thank you for all you do to help therapists. Truly like I do, free promo for you all the time, and it's because what you do is really, truly helpful and you, you get what we need to do to thrive.
So thank you for the podcast and for, for all you do.
Oh, I appreciate that. It's my absolute pleasure. I appreciate you take good care.
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Marketing Therapy is the podcast where therapists learn how to market their private practices without burnout, self-doubt, or sleazy tactics. Hosted by Anna Walker—marketing coach, strategist, and founder of Walker Strategy Co—each episode brings you clear, grounded advice to help you attract the right-fit, full-fee clients and grow a practice you feel proud of.
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